Wednesday, 21 June 2023

Change room facilities

Moira DEEMING (Western Metropolitan) (12:19): (188) My question is for the Minister for Equality. The Equal Opportunity Act lists both sex and gender identity as separate protected attributes for the purposes of prohibiting discrimination, and we know that in various circumstances for various reasons we have to balance these rights against one another. Could you please outline how service providers who manage change rooms are to treat gender identity and sex – which one they are to treat as the ascendant right – when managing change rooms?

Harriet SHING (Eastern Victoria – Minister for Water, Minister for Regional Development, Minister for Commonwealth Games Legacy, Minister for Equality) (12:20): Thank you, Ms Deeming, for that question. At the outset, I just want to note that there are some overlapping issues here around the way in which the Equal Opportunity Act operates and indeed a range of other legislative instruments. In particular, when you talk about community facilities I suspect we may be coming to local government, and that is obviously part of a separate regulatory framework. It may be more expansive than that, and I am very happy to talk with you about that. We actually do not, as a Victorian government, have a policy on gendered facilities at, for example, council-run facilities. That is by way of example.

Individual operators of facilities are in a position to set the terms of the way in which such facilities are used and are engaged. I want to perhaps identify an example that may give people here and people who are interested in this issue some insight. At the Regent Theatre we have a smash hit musical, & Juliet, which is a reimagining of Shakespeare. It is a global smash hit, and it has been very well received. At that particular venue – at the Regent – they have a sign which indicates:

& Juliet

…

GENDER DIVERSITY IS CELEBRATED HERE

Please use the restroom that most closely aligns with your gender identity or expression.

It is obviously part of making sure that people can safely and accessibly use facilities. I know that when I was first elected many of the toilets here that were for members contained urinals, which is obviously not inclusive or representative of me and a number of others who now occupy more than half of the government caucus and more than half of the cabinet. What I think is also really important to note, though, is that when people use facilities – save and except for, for example, a Changing Places facility, where you may have more than one person in a cubicle or in an area at once or where you may have parent or family rooms – toilets are engaged with as facilities by people on their own, so this –

Moira Deeming: On a point of order, President, I thank the minister, but my question was only about change rooms, not toilets.

Harriet SHING: Sorry, I thought you said ‘community facilities’. My apologies. Change rooms are also about creating spaces where people can actually get changed in a safe and accessible way, which is why at facilities we see family rooms and we see all-access rooms. Changing Places is another example of where people can get changed. Therefore gender does not actually feature in many of those settings where people can get changed, and indeed these are situations and settings where we do not have a particular policy. However, people are entitled to a safe workplace. People are entitled to participate in everyday life and to access goods and services in a way that is free from discrimination. That might give you some guidance as to how the law applies across various settings.

Moira DEEMING (Western Metropolitan) (12:23): Thank you, Minister Shing. Legally, then, can providers of change rooms theoretically provide for three categories separately – for example, one change room for biological males, one for biological females and perhaps a couple of other change rooms for those people who want to prioritise their gender identity over their sex when accessing those facilities? Would that be legal?

Harriet SHING (Eastern Victoria – Minister for Water, Minister for Regional Development, Minister for Commonwealth Games Legacy, Minister for Equality) (12:24): Ms Deeming, I am not in the habit of giving legal advice, and in this place it would be inappropriate to do so. I am just wondering, though, in that list that you have identified with three sets of facilities: firstly, what the cost impost of that would be; secondly, where we also have situations where we have intersex variations – and we touched on this yesterday – whether that indeed creates four categories; or whether indeed we have other sorts of facilities raised for different sets of concerns that might be raised. These are not matters that I am going to be giving legal advice on in response to your question.

Moira Deeming: On a point of order, President – I do not like to interrupt – I feel that perhaps the minister has not understood what I am asking. It sounds to me like, if people have the choice when they are providing change rooms, they can actually put a sign up and say, ‘This change room is for biological females and intersex females only based on their sex’ –

The PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Mrs Deeming, I do not think there is any point of order. The minister at the outset said that she was not free to give that sort of legal advice.

Harriet SHING: Again, Ms Deeming, just to confirm, I am not going to stand here and give you legal advice about what can and cannot be done. But I just note there are a variety of permutations and combinations where people need to get changed, need to be able to have a shower and need to be able to participate in community life in the same way as everybody else, and that will inform a variety of settings, including as they might relate to local council, to private enterprise and to a range of other settings. But, again, I am not going to traverse that landscape by seeking to provide a legal opinion on that today.